Before I make the proper thread that I wanted to compose, I want to make this preliminary thread to find out from you, MO, if you think this would be something you'd mind on this forum or if perhaps the subject matter might be too incendiary and offensive or too controversial that posting it might even be a liability.
I have a lot of respect for you, MO, as a forum admin (and as a good friend), and as I've said before, I have a lot of respect and fondness for this forum of yours.
With that being said, I don't want to rock the boat too much and the subject matter and themes that I want to raise for discussion do a lot more than just rock the boat.
One of my passions is comparative religious studies and exploring the origins (many lost to time, if not muddied and obfuscated by man) of religions - their symbols, archetypes, narratives, figures, theologies, doctrines, prayers, liturgical rites, etc.
To me religions are like languages of the soul and the way to really communicate to someone on a deep, soul level, you (more often than not) have to speak to them through the language of their religious system; and subsequently their perceptions and interactions with you (more often than not) will be filtered, nine times out of ten, depending on how serious their religious convictions are to them, through a distorted lens that creates a heart-mind-soul barrier, like a wall around their soul, and in order to read the proverbial "writing on the wall", you have to be able to interpret the foreign script that appears on the wall, and in order to understand that foreign script one requires either an interpreter or they must educate themselves as to that language, so as to understand that script, so that they themselves become fluent enough in that language and therefore never again require an interpreter.
If I meet someone who is Muslim I can greet them and say "Salaam Alaikum", even though I may not identify as Muslim or practice Islam, though most Muslims would say all humans are Muslims by definition, it is about whether one chooses to submit and adhere to Islam as a practice.
Likewise, if I encounter someone who is a very devout and active evangelical Christian, *if* I am able to speak and communicate to this Christian using themes, motiffs, terminology, phrases, etc, I am going to be able to establish a deeper, closer, more sincere connection with that person and therefore the possibilities of what we are able to learn, teach and share with one another - as human beings, first and foremost - expands exponentially.
Whereas if I did not initially begin communicating with this very devout Christian in our example, then *as soon as* we hit those intrapersonal conversational barriers whereupon the Christian is reminded that I, supposing I'm not a Christian, am an "other", an "outsider" and a "nonbeliever". As soon as this happens the likelihood of fostering a true, sincere, rich and meaningful heart-mind-soul connection with that person, that religious believer, becomes drastically reduced.
My point in elucidating this process is to illustrate these mechanisms and processes - which although I cannot explain it in a scientific, physiological or psychological way - I'd imagine folks would be pretty hard pressed to deny that the processes I'm describing do actually take place. But we are not stopping there. This is not some long winded diatribe highlighting the psycho-social problems that present in humans, particularly when humans begin practicing some form of religious practice. This isn't to raise a discussion to debate the alleged morals and ethics, or lack thereof, in these processes or of these religious individuals.
This is just my caveat to the real elephant in the room that every fiber and bone and sinew of my body burns and longs to be able to share and discuss and initiate conversations about with the world-at-large.
Throughout many years of research and study, as well as countless mystical/spiritual/religious 'ecstastic' experiences, I have finally come to one of the most startling realizations of my entire life that has shaken me to my very core. Especially as someone who was raised in the Church (both Protestant and Catholic at different times) and who has grown up in the North American Bible Belt 'world', that truly - for those outside that have no experience of this - is *really* a world of its own.
I am also someone who, for the longest time as far back as I can remember, wanted so badly to believe that I could have the "North American Christian Experience" - you know, getting to experience that life-changing, transformational 'personal relationship' with Jesus Christ, to actually experience Him coming into my heart and into my life, actually experience Him forgiving me of my many sins, cleansing me and making me whole, helping shape and mold me into a child - even, a Man - of God, getting to finally experience joy, peace that passes all understanding and freedom, that I was told, *is* possible, through "belief" and "faith" in Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross and in the Holy Spirit, and the Bible, and also if I will only just believe in all of the Bible, in the Old and New Testament, and surrender all my skepticism and questioning and seeking/wandering over to the foot of the Cross - except the foot of His Cross is actually at the foot of the Church's altar, and my submitting is actually to the power and authority of the Church and the man of the cloth or the "brother in Christ" with his hand on my shoulder ministering to me, leading me through my 4543th recitation and proclamation of the sinners prayer.
Each time I would find myself secretly hoping that *this time* was going to be the one where Jesus might finally break through, maybe this time I confessed *all* my sins and maybe this time the man with his hands on my shoulders with the funky breath that I assume is likely from the stench of the secret sins he hides lurking deep in his own heart that seem to all leap out as projections which he hurls at me in the form of "concerned prayers of accountability", maybe this time he might actually be righteous enough - hopefully - for our combined prayers. finally, to avail, as the scriptures say.
Hell, they don't even have to avail much, I'd be happy if they just availed at all, even slightly.
Most sane and rational people would probably say, "Wow, hey buddy, I love your sincerity and your desire for seeking turth and seeking a spiritual path and maybe bettering yourself and joining a community of people you can fellowship with and network with - but holy crap (literally) slow the f**k down, pause, take a deep breath, and really think about what you are doing here. Did it ever occur you that there may be a reason why you aren't able to experience everything else these other Church people are saying that they experience and that you believe/perceive them to be experiencing, which you are chasing so passionately and desperately?"
There is an answer there but it took me many long, painful, torturous years of blood, sweat and tears, believing myself to be flawed, broken, unworthy, past the point of return, irredeemable and just completely outside of the realm of "God's Love" or "God's Salvation'.
I managed to still give thanks and praise for "Gods Grace" which I experienced all the time when I didn't get crappy things in life that I equated to as punishments and "Gods Discipline" - if good things happened I believed I had, at least, "Gods Grace" and "Gods Mercy".
But why, oh why, could I never taste, grasp or experience "Gods Love", as made manifest, through "Gods Son", Jesus, that I was told by every bright eyed Church-going Christian with a beaming smile on their face that I, too, can KNOW, and COMMUNE WITH, and RECEIVE HEALINGS and INSIGHTS and REVELATIONS from - just like they do!
See, I was born into the Church and my mother, "God bless her", became ridiculously over-devout while in the midst of full blown post partum depression and coping with a myriad of undiagnosed and untreated mental illnesses that she never got in check until my late teens, early twenties.
Before that she was highly erratic, unstable, manically depressed, extremely abusive (though I can't say that she was intentionally abusive, I may only perceive her actions as abusive because of how they affected me, I cannot say that she was acting from a place of knowing and intentionally deciding to do abusive things) and all that time she was also an extremely devout and overly-active engaged practicing Christian.
I will say that she did always encourage and support my "free-thinking", "wandering/seeking" sort of curiosity as a child and throughout my life. In her defense, she absolutely never forced her religion on me.
However, I realized that I dove so deep, so fast and with so much passion and sincerity into Christianity and into the Bible as a child, with a fitful and desperate drive that persisted throughout my early adult life, not because I *actually believed* myself to be a lost soul in need of salvation from a Messiah-Savior-Redeemer, but because I was trying to get closer to my Mom.
I think a big part of me then, and a bigger part of me now, thought that since Mom has always been so close to God and Jesus, as she prays *constantly*, that *maybe* if I could get closer to God and Jesus I could *show up* at the table so to speak and be there with Mom and actually feel like part of the family.
It's not that I wanted to somehow win moms approval or her validation by showing her that I was a good Christian, I always had to "love" and "approval/validation".
I think, selfishly, and jealously, I wanted her to think about me or spend time with me that didn't involve a devotional or scriptural lesson/illustration and that wasn't just running errands or doing chores around the house the way that she always thought about pleasing God or how she was always wanting to be "in Gods Word", "Spending time with the Lord".
I wished she wanted to know my heart and have a close relationship with me the way she spent so many days and nights in prayer and devotional journaling seeking after a relationship with Jesus or with God.
I had long since accepted that I would never be able to change her or get her out of her religious fixations (I'd even call them obsessions, but I dont mean to be denigrating towards her about it) so I thought that surely I could enter into the Spirit World somehow and perhaps, if I could, I might be able to get some answers to all the questions that plagued me, pretty much all my life.
They say in order to beat the game you have to play by the rules, right?
Maybe I could somehow get an audience with this God and this Jesus and they could, in all their "love" and "infinite wisdom", tell me what I have to do to get closer to my mom, how we can have a closer relationship and maybe, just maybe, how I can help her understand she's NOT the worthless sinner, or the horrible inferior person that she makes herself out to be in her self-deprecating prayers and maybe Jesus and God could help me show mom that everything she's been looking for, all the love and joy and blessings and abundance she pleads for, is all right here, right inside her and right inside me, where its always been, all along.
I thought Jesus and God could help me understand why, if mom is so faithful and sincere and devout, the why does she walk around carrying so much fear and shame and guilt and why is she so downtrodden and heavy-laden and wired as tight as a drum? What was her faith and her devotion actually producing in her life, and in mine, if not massive amounts of confusion?
And here I was told that "God is not the author of confusion", so if that's the case then who is authoring this life that I am living?
It's not that I ever meant to actually venture out into the world with some determined mission to disprove Christianity (or Islam and Judaism, included in the Abrahamic big 3) and I am not one of those hardline Atheists ready to launch crude and condescending remarks towards the religious faithful - I am a huge advocate for religious autonomy and the right and freedom for the individual to practice, pursue, investigate, question and express the religion of their choosing. This is *not* just another post railing against Christianity.
What if I told you that I had a preponderance of evidence that sits with me and weighs heavy on me like a burden of proof, to show that Christianity began in some VERY VERY sketchy and deceptive ways and that *not only* was most of the old and new testament 'narratives' just retellings of religious stories and narratives from Ancient Babylonia, Sumeria, Ur, Canaan, Egypt, Chaldea and other lands around that region at that time - I see people address that all the time. While those are fascinating conversations and for those being exposed to these evidences for the first time, no doubt, these conversations can become wildly intriguing and exciting and its a rabbit hole in and of itself to dive down.
That is not what I want to talk about.
What I want to address and somehow bring to the world - maybe next time in a less long-winded way - is the question of whether Christianity should even be allowed to continue to operate, propagate and dominate the Western World based on the evidences which I have been painstakingly compiling and documenting to be able to present, perhaps imagine it as a sort of "Class Action Lawsuit".
Its one thing to sit around and talk about the atrocities and the problems and all the glaring contradictions and hypocrisies of the Church Universal as an institution.
Its one thing to sit around and wax philosophic about the chronological and historical discrepancies and anomalies within the texts themselves and labor to decipher or discern alternative meanings, any meaning, to explain away these discrepancies and anomalies.
Its another thing entirely to be able to finally *SEE* and to *KNOW* and to *UNDERSTAND* exactly from where and and from whom "Christianity" as a doctrine and as a "religious practice" was STOLEN or APPROPRIATED and to have enough of an understanding to be able to elucidate and educate as to HOW exactly it was appropriated and perhaps even be able to provide logical and feasible insight into possible reasons WHY these things took place at all.
Maybe I'm crazy - there's no denying that whatsoever - but there really seems to be a remote and very faint possibility that I have been led to certain information which I have extensively fact checked and cross referenced and made absolutely sure of my sources - and my sources have all led me to conclusions do not bode very well for the Abrahamic Big 3, at all, and I think I might actually be someone crazy enough, bold enough and dedicated enough to be able to carry my findings and present them to the world in a respectful but matter of fact way.
So I suppose before I dive on in and begin unloading all of my findings and research and pouring my life's work and heart and soul into a HIGHLY controversial thread that WILL likely be found very offensive to anyone with a very serious conviction or adherence to or belief in any of the Abrahamic faiths - I wanted to make this one just to lay the groundwork and kinda get the conversations flowing, test the waters a bit, and see where things go from there.
Anyway I'm going to wrap this up and I look forward to conversations here on this thread. Depending on how things go I'll either make another thread later with the actual stuff I've been documenting and collecting OR I will politely just kick rocks, if asked to do so by you, MO. Again I'm unsure if this is even the type of material or subject matter you want on your forum, and if its not, hey, I completely understand and respect that!
Thanks again for having a place where I can at least come to with these questions and these matters.
I have a lot of respect for you, MO, as a forum admin (and as a good friend), and as I've said before, I have a lot of respect and fondness for this forum of yours.
With that being said, I don't want to rock the boat too much and the subject matter and themes that I want to raise for discussion do a lot more than just rock the boat.
One of my passions is comparative religious studies and exploring the origins (many lost to time, if not muddied and obfuscated by man) of religions - their symbols, archetypes, narratives, figures, theologies, doctrines, prayers, liturgical rites, etc.
To me religions are like languages of the soul and the way to really communicate to someone on a deep, soul level, you (more often than not) have to speak to them through the language of their religious system; and subsequently their perceptions and interactions with you (more often than not) will be filtered, nine times out of ten, depending on how serious their religious convictions are to them, through a distorted lens that creates a heart-mind-soul barrier, like a wall around their soul, and in order to read the proverbial "writing on the wall", you have to be able to interpret the foreign script that appears on the wall, and in order to understand that foreign script one requires either an interpreter or they must educate themselves as to that language, so as to understand that script, so that they themselves become fluent enough in that language and therefore never again require an interpreter.
If I meet someone who is Muslim I can greet them and say "Salaam Alaikum", even though I may not identify as Muslim or practice Islam, though most Muslims would say all humans are Muslims by definition, it is about whether one chooses to submit and adhere to Islam as a practice.
Likewise, if I encounter someone who is a very devout and active evangelical Christian, *if* I am able to speak and communicate to this Christian using themes, motiffs, terminology, phrases, etc, I am going to be able to establish a deeper, closer, more sincere connection with that person and therefore the possibilities of what we are able to learn, teach and share with one another - as human beings, first and foremost - expands exponentially.
Whereas if I did not initially begin communicating with this very devout Christian in our example, then *as soon as* we hit those intrapersonal conversational barriers whereupon the Christian is reminded that I, supposing I'm not a Christian, am an "other", an "outsider" and a "nonbeliever". As soon as this happens the likelihood of fostering a true, sincere, rich and meaningful heart-mind-soul connection with that person, that religious believer, becomes drastically reduced.
My point in elucidating this process is to illustrate these mechanisms and processes - which although I cannot explain it in a scientific, physiological or psychological way - I'd imagine folks would be pretty hard pressed to deny that the processes I'm describing do actually take place. But we are not stopping there. This is not some long winded diatribe highlighting the psycho-social problems that present in humans, particularly when humans begin practicing some form of religious practice. This isn't to raise a discussion to debate the alleged morals and ethics, or lack thereof, in these processes or of these religious individuals.
This is just my caveat to the real elephant in the room that every fiber and bone and sinew of my body burns and longs to be able to share and discuss and initiate conversations about with the world-at-large.
Throughout many years of research and study, as well as countless mystical/spiritual/religious 'ecstastic' experiences, I have finally come to one of the most startling realizations of my entire life that has shaken me to my very core. Especially as someone who was raised in the Church (both Protestant and Catholic at different times) and who has grown up in the North American Bible Belt 'world', that truly - for those outside that have no experience of this - is *really* a world of its own.
I am also someone who, for the longest time as far back as I can remember, wanted so badly to believe that I could have the "North American Christian Experience" - you know, getting to experience that life-changing, transformational 'personal relationship' with Jesus Christ, to actually experience Him coming into my heart and into my life, actually experience Him forgiving me of my many sins, cleansing me and making me whole, helping shape and mold me into a child - even, a Man - of God, getting to finally experience joy, peace that passes all understanding and freedom, that I was told, *is* possible, through "belief" and "faith" in Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross and in the Holy Spirit, and the Bible, and also if I will only just believe in all of the Bible, in the Old and New Testament, and surrender all my skepticism and questioning and seeking/wandering over to the foot of the Cross - except the foot of His Cross is actually at the foot of the Church's altar, and my submitting is actually to the power and authority of the Church and the man of the cloth or the "brother in Christ" with his hand on my shoulder ministering to me, leading me through my 4543th recitation and proclamation of the sinners prayer.
Each time I would find myself secretly hoping that *this time* was going to be the one where Jesus might finally break through, maybe this time I confessed *all* my sins and maybe this time the man with his hands on my shoulders with the funky breath that I assume is likely from the stench of the secret sins he hides lurking deep in his own heart that seem to all leap out as projections which he hurls at me in the form of "concerned prayers of accountability", maybe this time he might actually be righteous enough - hopefully - for our combined prayers. finally, to avail, as the scriptures say.
Hell, they don't even have to avail much, I'd be happy if they just availed at all, even slightly.
Most sane and rational people would probably say, "Wow, hey buddy, I love your sincerity and your desire for seeking turth and seeking a spiritual path and maybe bettering yourself and joining a community of people you can fellowship with and network with - but holy crap (literally) slow the f**k down, pause, take a deep breath, and really think about what you are doing here. Did it ever occur you that there may be a reason why you aren't able to experience everything else these other Church people are saying that they experience and that you believe/perceive them to be experiencing, which you are chasing so passionately and desperately?"
There is an answer there but it took me many long, painful, torturous years of blood, sweat and tears, believing myself to be flawed, broken, unworthy, past the point of return, irredeemable and just completely outside of the realm of "God's Love" or "God's Salvation'.
I managed to still give thanks and praise for "Gods Grace" which I experienced all the time when I didn't get crappy things in life that I equated to as punishments and "Gods Discipline" - if good things happened I believed I had, at least, "Gods Grace" and "Gods Mercy".
But why, oh why, could I never taste, grasp or experience "Gods Love", as made manifest, through "Gods Son", Jesus, that I was told by every bright eyed Church-going Christian with a beaming smile on their face that I, too, can KNOW, and COMMUNE WITH, and RECEIVE HEALINGS and INSIGHTS and REVELATIONS from - just like they do!
See, I was born into the Church and my mother, "God bless her", became ridiculously over-devout while in the midst of full blown post partum depression and coping with a myriad of undiagnosed and untreated mental illnesses that she never got in check until my late teens, early twenties.
Before that she was highly erratic, unstable, manically depressed, extremely abusive (though I can't say that she was intentionally abusive, I may only perceive her actions as abusive because of how they affected me, I cannot say that she was acting from a place of knowing and intentionally deciding to do abusive things) and all that time she was also an extremely devout and overly-active engaged practicing Christian.
I will say that she did always encourage and support my "free-thinking", "wandering/seeking" sort of curiosity as a child and throughout my life. In her defense, she absolutely never forced her religion on me.
However, I realized that I dove so deep, so fast and with so much passion and sincerity into Christianity and into the Bible as a child, with a fitful and desperate drive that persisted throughout my early adult life, not because I *actually believed* myself to be a lost soul in need of salvation from a Messiah-Savior-Redeemer, but because I was trying to get closer to my Mom.
I think a big part of me then, and a bigger part of me now, thought that since Mom has always been so close to God and Jesus, as she prays *constantly*, that *maybe* if I could get closer to God and Jesus I could *show up* at the table so to speak and be there with Mom and actually feel like part of the family.
It's not that I wanted to somehow win moms approval or her validation by showing her that I was a good Christian, I always had to "love" and "approval/validation".
I think, selfishly, and jealously, I wanted her to think about me or spend time with me that didn't involve a devotional or scriptural lesson/illustration and that wasn't just running errands or doing chores around the house the way that she always thought about pleasing God or how she was always wanting to be "in Gods Word", "Spending time with the Lord".
I wished she wanted to know my heart and have a close relationship with me the way she spent so many days and nights in prayer and devotional journaling seeking after a relationship with Jesus or with God.
I had long since accepted that I would never be able to change her or get her out of her religious fixations (I'd even call them obsessions, but I dont mean to be denigrating towards her about it) so I thought that surely I could enter into the Spirit World somehow and perhaps, if I could, I might be able to get some answers to all the questions that plagued me, pretty much all my life.
They say in order to beat the game you have to play by the rules, right?
Maybe I could somehow get an audience with this God and this Jesus and they could, in all their "love" and "infinite wisdom", tell me what I have to do to get closer to my mom, how we can have a closer relationship and maybe, just maybe, how I can help her understand she's NOT the worthless sinner, or the horrible inferior person that she makes herself out to be in her self-deprecating prayers and maybe Jesus and God could help me show mom that everything she's been looking for, all the love and joy and blessings and abundance she pleads for, is all right here, right inside her and right inside me, where its always been, all along.
I thought Jesus and God could help me understand why, if mom is so faithful and sincere and devout, the why does she walk around carrying so much fear and shame and guilt and why is she so downtrodden and heavy-laden and wired as tight as a drum? What was her faith and her devotion actually producing in her life, and in mine, if not massive amounts of confusion?
And here I was told that "God is not the author of confusion", so if that's the case then who is authoring this life that I am living?
It's not that I ever meant to actually venture out into the world with some determined mission to disprove Christianity (or Islam and Judaism, included in the Abrahamic big 3) and I am not one of those hardline Atheists ready to launch crude and condescending remarks towards the religious faithful - I am a huge advocate for religious autonomy and the right and freedom for the individual to practice, pursue, investigate, question and express the religion of their choosing. This is *not* just another post railing against Christianity.
What if I told you that I had a preponderance of evidence that sits with me and weighs heavy on me like a burden of proof, to show that Christianity began in some VERY VERY sketchy and deceptive ways and that *not only* was most of the old and new testament 'narratives' just retellings of religious stories and narratives from Ancient Babylonia, Sumeria, Ur, Canaan, Egypt, Chaldea and other lands around that region at that time - I see people address that all the time. While those are fascinating conversations and for those being exposed to these evidences for the first time, no doubt, these conversations can become wildly intriguing and exciting and its a rabbit hole in and of itself to dive down.
That is not what I want to talk about.
What I want to address and somehow bring to the world - maybe next time in a less long-winded way - is the question of whether Christianity should even be allowed to continue to operate, propagate and dominate the Western World based on the evidences which I have been painstakingly compiling and documenting to be able to present, perhaps imagine it as a sort of "Class Action Lawsuit".
Its one thing to sit around and talk about the atrocities and the problems and all the glaring contradictions and hypocrisies of the Church Universal as an institution.
Its one thing to sit around and wax philosophic about the chronological and historical discrepancies and anomalies within the texts themselves and labor to decipher or discern alternative meanings, any meaning, to explain away these discrepancies and anomalies.
Its another thing entirely to be able to finally *SEE* and to *KNOW* and to *UNDERSTAND* exactly from where and and from whom "Christianity" as a doctrine and as a "religious practice" was STOLEN or APPROPRIATED and to have enough of an understanding to be able to elucidate and educate as to HOW exactly it was appropriated and perhaps even be able to provide logical and feasible insight into possible reasons WHY these things took place at all.
Maybe I'm crazy - there's no denying that whatsoever - but there really seems to be a remote and very faint possibility that I have been led to certain information which I have extensively fact checked and cross referenced and made absolutely sure of my sources - and my sources have all led me to conclusions do not bode very well for the Abrahamic Big 3, at all, and I think I might actually be someone crazy enough, bold enough and dedicated enough to be able to carry my findings and present them to the world in a respectful but matter of fact way.
So I suppose before I dive on in and begin unloading all of my findings and research and pouring my life's work and heart and soul into a HIGHLY controversial thread that WILL likely be found very offensive to anyone with a very serious conviction or adherence to or belief in any of the Abrahamic faiths - I wanted to make this one just to lay the groundwork and kinda get the conversations flowing, test the waters a bit, and see where things go from there.
Anyway I'm going to wrap this up and I look forward to conversations here on this thread. Depending on how things go I'll either make another thread later with the actual stuff I've been documenting and collecting OR I will politely just kick rocks, if asked to do so by you, MO. Again I'm unsure if this is even the type of material or subject matter you want on your forum, and if its not, hey, I completely understand and respect that!
Thanks again for having a place where I can at least come to with these questions and these matters.
